Joel Salatin: Curing Society’s Constipation Of Imagination
As my son, Daniel says all of the time, "Our problem is not a lack of resources. Our problem is a constipation of imagination."
In our culture today, we're all blocked up. Because we're so sure we know how it's supposed to be done. That becomes our limiting factor. We can do things very differently and profoundly better, but it never even enters the imagination.
So says the always colorful "renegade farmer" Joel Salatin, who returns to the podcast this week to share his latest thoughts on creative yet practical solutions that society could and should be pursuing, vs limiting and litigating everything under the sun.
Much of what's needed is a shift in thinking and priorities, says Salatin. And it starts with embracing initiative, accountability, and a 'do more with what we have' mentality — which stands in stark contrast to the "we just need more stuff" narrative of today's status quo:
It's easy to say, "I can't." It's a lot harder to say, "I can."
"I can't" is so fun to say. Because then we're not responsible. If you can do something, but you're not; then you're responsible. But, if you can't do it, and you're not; then you're of the hook. "I can't" – is a real enabler for business as usual.
Using farming as a metaphor, we see it in our industry all the time. When a farm wants to produce more — say, in order to generate more salaries — most farmers always thinking; "How do we gobble up additional farmland and additional acres?" I
At my place, Polyface Farms, we instead think, "How can we stack?" This is a permaculture concept. How can we stack more enterprises on the acreage we have?
For example, we've dug a bunch of ponds; enough now that we've bought some of this K-Line Irrigation system. Now, when it gets dry in the summer; instead of sitting here and being depressed on the stoop because it's not raining, we take winter snow melt and early spring rains like we have had just lately — all of our ponds are full now — and in August, we can dispense that water out on the landscape. We can grow another whole cycle of vegetation. Whether it's crops, grass — whatever — we can grow another cycle of vegetation with that stored water. That's a way to work from the inside out, instead of looking for additional production from outside. Let's look inside. Let's see what we can do with what we already have. We can grow other products. We can do other things.
I mean, we have a sawmill. We got a sawmill so we could cut our own lumber. But guess what? We can make furniture out of that lumber. Suddenly, those trees that are worth $10 wholesale at the sawmill suddenly become worth $500 as a hutch, or a chair, or a table, or whatever. Suddenly, instead of having to harvest 50 acres of forest in order to make a decent income; we only have to harvest half an acre. All of the rest can keep growing. We make the same amount out of half an acre that we did off of 50 acres.
That's the kind of inside out thinking .And through this stacking of synergistic enterprises, we actually generate more income on the same acreage as opposed to always looking at more acreage.
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Joel Salatin: Curing Society’s Constipation Of Imagination
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Chris Martenson: Welcome to this Peak prosperity podcast. I am your host, Chris Martenson. Today is May 16, 2017. Now, I have the pleasure today of speaking once again with Joel Salatin, one of the most visible and influential leaders in the organic food and sustainable farming movement. His family owns and manages Polyface Farms, which is featured prominently in such modern food movement masterworks as The Omnivore’s Dilemma by Michael Pollan; and the documentaries Fresh, and Food, Inc., American Meat, and most recently, the documentary Polyfaces.
Of course, he has a blurb on the back of our latest book Prosper. Hey look, I can't wait to get started as the conversation is always lively. It is always informative. It's sure to arouse both curiosity, maybe a slight whiff of alarm. Hey, you will laugh. You will cry. You will suddenly develop a new interest in space colonization. Joel, welcome back.
Joel Salatin: Thank you. It's great to be with you, Chris.
I really live out here in the country and, lots of forests and stuff around. I am not sure that I have noticed a decline too much. There certainly does seem to be a decline in birds, which of course would mirror a decline in insects. I know that on our farm. We're just entering our third year on a Smithsonian Benchmark Study where they're actually measuring, not all insects, but pollinators and birds.
What is great for us to know is that we are way up. Of all of the sites they are looking at, we're in the top with the number of pollinators. All eight species of bumble bees in Virginia are here on our little farm. Our position has always been that good farming should actually increase wildlife, which includes everything from earthworms, to pollinators, to spiders, to insects. Certainly, when you have pretty much indiscriminate policies of spraying, and policies of mono-speciation, it's not very conducive to diversified insects.
Chris Martenson: Yes, and maybe you are in a slightly different position there, given your surrounds. A lot of my experience in tracking the insect population comes from these long drives that my family has done every year I have been alive. We go to upstate New York. It is about a six hour drive. It's through bucolic picturesque farm country. This is all, mostly corn, and some soybean farming, and whatnot. These are the people I think who are really heavily using –
Joel Salatin: Yeah.
Chris Martenson: – Neonicotinoids, GMO, all sorts of things. They are using – it looks really bucolic and all that; but really, this is the center of the agricultural revolution, as it were. They're really hammering away. I think. I'm pretty sure that has a lot to do with it.
Joel Salatin: Absolutely, well the fact is that a landscape that is extremely simplistic, and simplistic in speciation. Whether it's animals, or plants, or whatever. But an environment that is highly simplistic is not very conducive to wildlife. At least to a broad array of wildlife, which includes everything from, of course, deer all of the way down to whatever. It is conducive a lot of times to pathogens, molds, viruses, and even vermin. Whether it's rats, mice, raccoons, possums.
Those sorts of things that are kind of the lower end. I realize that wildlife centers take these critters in, and nurse them back to health, and protect them. But around here, they're considered vermin. They don't last long when they encounter…. I mean, we don't go out and try to exterminate them. But, when you find a possum in the chicks or in the egg nest box, that possum is not a friend.
Chris Martenson: You take them up back and you have a conversation with them. Is that correct?
Joel Salatin: We do. We have a conversation.
Chris Martenson: Yes.
Joel Salatin: Yes. It's a very loud report.
Chris Martenson: Yeah. I sure get that. I have had a few conversations here. Woodchucks, I found. There is just really no talking to a woodchuck. They' are just….
Joel Salatin: No talking to a woodchuck; no, they are just evil. They are a real problem.
Chris Martenson: They just….
Joel Salatin: There are some things that I just don't know what they were made for. But, I guess everything has a purpose. But, I haven't discovered it on a few things. I mean, the fact, and again. We don't try to eradicate – we don't set traps out and try to kill everything. But, we try to provide a great habitat and lots of moles, and voles, and things, and diversity for stuff to eat. If they can't be satisfied with that; then, we assume that there is an overpopulation. We don't need dependent vermin.
Chris Martenson: I think that groundhogs are here to teach us both hopelessness and patience as gardeners. I think that's probably where they fit in.
Joel Salatin: Yeah.
Chris Martenson: Because they are like bulldozers.
Astonishing how much they can eat.
Joel Salatin: Yeah. They can move an astonishing amount of dirt. That's for sure.
Chris Martenson: Alright, last time we talked. You were in the process of finishing up your latest book, The Marvelous Pigness of Pigs. You had a bit of curiosity about how that was going to be received because of its subject matter. How is it being received?
Joel Salatin: Yeah. The short answer is it's pretty mixed. The folks who have read it, generally speaking, the people who have read it, love it. I mean, they love it. I think it's more letters from people thanking me. I have wanted to say this all my life. Finally somebody has verbalized it, and blah-blah-blah – than anything I have ever done. But, it's been a hard sell. It hasn't sold like I hoped; not that I write for…. I don't write stuff to sell. But, it's always nice to make some sales, if you can.
The most telling thing about it was that FaithWords who published it went to 150 pastors around the country for cover blurbs. I think for the first time in history, they could not get a single response. The reason was because the pastors were scared of the congregation. What do you do, if you are a pastor, you put a little…? You ought to read this.
Just, all you have got to do is say, "You have got to say you got to read this book," on the back cover. Your choir director has a daughter that's just become a research assistant at Monsanto. She is all giddy about her daughter landing this nice high paying job in corporate America. Or, what do you do if your head elder has two Tyson chicken houses?
This really struck into that tension that I that I speak about in the book and addressed. This tension in the faith community. It's Chick-fil-A. It's cheap, and cheap food, and junk food. That leaves me enough money to put in the missionary barrel. It's a real tension in the faith community, Interestingly, I have had probably as much positive response from the total non-faith community saying, "Man, I'm going to get three of these and give them to my three Christian friends. And they need to read this."
Chris Martenson: Yeah.
Joel Salatin: That's been pretty positive. But, it was just released this week in paperback. I just think it hasn't gotten traction, partly because of the faith community. It isn't quite sure what to do with it. They have their youth night, and bring in Papa John's Pizza, and Coca-Cola. That's what the youth eat and drink at their youth parties all of the time. This book dares to question whether that's the right thing we should do with God's stuff?
Chris Martenson: That's an interesting proposition, of course. It means a belief system. It's to give up the Papa John's and the soda. I don't think…. There's a variety of reasons you might do that. But, one of the first things you have to confront is a very dark idea; which is that corporations may not…. This is, and just go with me here – may not have your best interests at heart.
Joel Salatin: Yes, and not even your best interests, but the interests of –
Chris Martenson: – Anything.
Joel Salatin: – A divine, of a God who –
Chris Martenson: Yes.
Joel Salatin: – As Christians, we say…. I realize that many of your listeners are not Christians. But in the faith community, we say, 'The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." That's what the bible says. It's all His. To question well, what's his return on investment? Is it a good return on his investment of creation that we that have a dead zone the size of New Jersey in the Gulf of Mexico from farm chemical runoff? If the earth were your stuff, yeah; how would you like somebody treating it that way?
The theme of the book is what you say you believe in the pew showing up on the menu? I think, yeah. I realize that there's hardly anybody, right? I mean, there are plenty of theologians. It's fine for a theologian to write about stewardship. It's kind of abstract. Yes, we should take care of things and all of that. But, everybody, yes, Amen, it's all nice and focus group academic.
But, as soon as you start actually becoming practical with it, that's where it kind of gets dicey. I mean, one of my favorite passages in there is when I say, "Why can't a youth group leaders…." Instead of taking the kids to Six Flags over Georgia, or whatever – to the to the resort and all – why don't they buy a bunch of maddox and go to the local farmer that's got thistles, and weeds, and multiflora rose; and chop bramble for a day, and kind of help restore some order there. Learn what thorns, and brambles, and the sweat of your brow is all about. When you come to….
That brambles, and thorns, and weeds, and all of that stuff came as a result sin. Well, yeah, it's a metaphor for sin. We have got to…. It takes work to attack them. Then you have this, the other theme of the book. That the physical world we live in, our day to day visceral world is an object lesson of spiritual truth. How we handle the practical visceral living day to day is how we actually invoke, or embrace, or illustrate faith, and love, and mercy, and beauty, and neighborliness, and all of this kind of thing.
It's not very neighborly to have a manure lagoon that stinks up the neighborhood. It pollutes all of the water. It gives everybody nausea. That's not very neighborly; the Golden Rule, doing others as you would want them to do unto you. Most of industrial agriculture is located in poor communities or far away communities. Because they're not very neighbor friendly. What does that say about any kind of business when nobody wants to live next to it?
We think that good farming should be aesthetically and aromatically, and essentially romantic; so much so that neighbors want to live next to it. I mean, that's the principle the Golden Rule. There are a lot of practical applications in the book. I think that's why it's a tough read. But, a lot of people have been very positive about it. Who really respond and enjoy the fact that this guy is not just off on some pulpit being academic. It's actually daring to ask the question. How should we then live?
I have had some interesting response. I will be doing my first big church presentation in Indianapolis about the book. They're actually buying a hundred copies using it as a study book. Then, I am coming to do a weekend of seminars for this. It's kind of a three church. The three of them are going together. I am really excited about that. I presented a couple of months ago at the Progressive Youth Ministers Conference in Montreat, North Carolina. That was kind of cool.
Yeah. It's a topic worth wrestling over. I certainly don't purport to have all of the answers. I don't want to start a cult. I say in the book. Look, I don't think there is anything wrong at all with eating a Snickers Bar. I am not going to tell you that you are in sin, if you eat a Snickers Bar. But I would dare to question whether you should eat a Snicker's Bar every day. Alright, I mean, there's a balance there. That's what we're after.
Chris Martenson: A lot of fascinating things to pick up on there. One of them, I was quite intrigued to learn that the word sin, its root meaning derives into – translates to miss the mark.
Joel Salatin: Yeah.
Chris Martenson: To sin was to like shoot an arrow. It went wide or something like that. It's literally to miss the mark.
Joel Salatin: Right.
Chris Martenson: You were talking about the brambles, and the thorns, and all of that. If you have got those taking over your farm; I suggest, you're missing the mark in some way, shape, or form there, right. This is, I think, what you were getting to is this idea. That in many respects, we have defaulted. We have gone down the easy route. It's real easy to buy that Snickers Bar every day. It is real easy to get the Papa John's and the soda; and not to pick on those two things. I mean, I could pick anything.
Joel Salatin: Right.
Chris Martenson: But, when you have that every single day, you clearly miss the mark. We can detect that in all of our base statistics about the metabolic syndromes, and the obesity, and the levels of unhappiness. If we believe there's any correlation between what we eat and how we feel, and on, and on, and on.
We're clearly missing the mark in lots of ways. What you have done here. You have tied it back. You have given people a faith of Christian faith, a way to begin to connect those dots. Is that right?
Joel Salatin: Yeah. That's exactly right. It's a concern to me when the faith community; which is supposed to demonstrate a lot of really positive things. A greater order and greater function in their lives whether it's happier marriages, a happier kids. I am not a big health and wealth preacher; name it, claim it kind of guy. I mean, there are certainly things that you can't help. But, in general, the faith community is called to be an example of a positive alternative in a dysfunctional world.
It's concerning when we have the same level of obesity, and all of these lifestyle diseases. Eighty percent, it's huge – of our diseases and sicknesses are our lifestyle. Whether it's lack of exercise, dietary, all the above, stress, and lack of sleep, all of those kinds of things. Yet, the faith community tends to not want to address those kinds of things.
It's glad to address other things. But, it doesn't like to address those issues. I just dare to…. I would say look, man. When you start talking about, for example LGBTQ. These big thorny things, I mean. Those are big thorny things. But my goodness, eating as if your body really matters. As if it really is the temple of the Holy Spirit; eating like that. That's not all that hard.
I mean, that's what you call picking the low hanging fruit. Some of the other things can be really thorny. This just eating clean, I mean we think a lot more about the purity of the gasoline we put in our car than we do the fuel we put in our bodies. That's just silly. I would suggest it's not being a good steward of our bodies.
Chris Martenson: Now, we're trending into really interesting territory for me. This is coming from my own angle, a little bit different direction. But, I think it triangulates on the same spot. Here is what I think. Let me just toss this out. Then, we will let your reaction flow where it will as it always does. I have come to the conclusion, Joel, that we aren't going to elect.
We are not going to program. We are going to tweak or invent our way out of these various predicaments in which we find ourselves. By the way, I would put obesity in there, right. I think that what's needed here is a shift in consciousness. Now careful, I don't mean the groovy thing popularized and trivialized in the '60s.
I mean, we have to tame our egos, which are never content with what we have. They always; our egos want more. They are never satisfied. It's the thing that marketers play against, those hidden desires of ours, which are very rooted in our humanness and our egos. But, it's in our subconscious. Man, they just target that stuff. They sell us the same stuff over and over again.
It's that they push easy buttons, right. To lift out of that, and to get to a place where we can be content, and happy with what we have. It means we have to nudge that ego aside. That right there creates the space for different thinking. I'm going to call that consciousness, to emerge. Until we can be content with what nature can provide, we're just eating into the foundation of our existence.
I personally don't see a future unless we begin behaving entirely differently. Like you say. There's some low hanging fruit out there. We could begin our behavior sets with the low hanging fruit; and not the really thorny, but much higher fruit on that tree.
Joel Salatin: Right.
Chris Martenson: What are your thoughts there?
Joel Salatin: Yeah. I think you're exactly right. I mean, in the Apostles, Paul tells us. I have found wherever I am to be content. Contentment is not possessions. Contentment is out. It is value way beyond just possessions. Many of the happiest people in the earth are what we would consider in abject poverty. But they have…. If you go to some of these, for example, primitive cultures. My goodness, their level of contentment is profound. They have got family.
They don't have worries of whether the cell phone is working or not. I mean, we live in what I call it frenetic time. Millennials are especially susceptible to this. I mean, their whole self-esteem and affirmation is based on how many likes they have got. Boy, if I don't get a like in 30 minutes, no. The world has abandoned me.
We are just growing in addiction to a technological fix and the freneticness of life. I mean, young parents. If their kids aren't in five soccer leagues and three ballet programs; they're not giving their kids a decent platform to life.
I would just suggest. Maybe the kids ought to be building some dams in the streams, and some tree forts, and making their make believe. We all know that little children, the toddlers. You get them a present. They're done with it in about five minutes. What they spend the day on is playing in the box. Imagination is stimulated by making do and learning. I have decided that the greatest wealth right now that a person can have is if you can grow something, build something, or fix something. If you can repair it, build it, or grow it.
That's who I want to be next to. Whether it's good times or bad times. It doesn't matter. Our culture right now does not stimulate that kind of thing. What it stimulates is do you know the latest dysfunction in the Kardashian household? What's the latest movie? What is the latest iPhone? What is the latest Snapchat? What is the latest thing that went viral on YouTube? I feel like we're levitating.
We're levitating farther and farther away from the humus that is the foundation of human. This abdicating this ecological umbilical to our to our earthly womb. As a result, we are de-learning, unlearning, or whatever you want to call it. We are becoming more ignorant about how to actually practically live in our nest?
That's a dangerous place. If you can't live regeneratively in your nest, you are in a very vulnerable situation. Whether you're spending beyond your means. Or, whether you're using technology that's fragile way beyond your means and beyond your needs.
Whether you are eating food that you have no clue where it came from. Who had anything to do with it? What it was? You are putting faith in a lot of external stuff. One of the things you learn pretty quickly in regenerative circles. The resiliency and the stability comes from the inside out, and not the outside in. If we're not working on the inside out.
In your book, the chapter on mastery is so profound. When it takes time. It takes time to develop mastery, and to grow things, or repair things, and build things. You're not going to get it out of a book when suddenly things go south. Yeah. I'm going on too long. But you see, the point that contentment, and real value, and real wealth are not Wall Street portfolios and stuff. It's skill. It's mastery. It's knowledge, and those kinds of things; and knowing how to do things, and fix things, and grow things.
On our farm, it's interesting. We have gotten a lot of condemnation from the industrial food orthodoxy folks. The way you farm. It takes too many people. Your kind of farming has too many people on the farm. I say yes. It does take more people on the farm. But we have strategically chosen to substitute pharmaceutical in pharmaceutical intensity and dependency; capital intensity and dependency, and energy intensity and dependency with people.
When you do that, your equity – our equity as a farm business has moved from physical depreciable assets and ongoing expenditures. Our capital has moved to the non physical skill information and customers of people. There is not a bank in the world that can ever foreclose on your skill. There is nobody who is ever going to come to you and say, "I'm going to repossess your knowledge." From an equity standpoint, when you move your equity from stuff to non-stuff, that becomes an extremely resilient wealth plan.
Chris Martenson: Indeed, it does. Of course, you are just singing from the same hymn book as myself on this one. Because this is also something that I judge is really sorely lacking in our culture at this point and time. Where we're not really rewarding a real depth in certain things. We reward some things, and not others.
One of the key attributes that I am looking at now is that of all of the things we reward; if you open up a book. You say, "Well, what are masculine attributes?" We got well, assertiveness, dominance, reductionism, and logic, all of that stuff. We got that in spades. But, what we really don't make space for, or honor, or value is the other side. The feminine side of the equation, which is about relatedness, and nurturing, and being in the flow, and maybe not knowing, and being comfortable with the not knowing, all of that stuff, right.
Life is just a balance. My prescription and all of this is dear; we're way out of balance, right. You mentioned that at least in one very physical tangible way; which is, if you're living in a container. You're not doing it regeneratively, you are deeply exposed. It's going to come back and haunt you at some point in time.
The people who just; both make me chuckle, and get a little aggravated are the people like, yeah. We're going to Mars, right. This idea that yeah, we have this functioning space ship right now. We can't figure out how to work it right. What we're going to do in a pinch is we're going to escape to another place. I'm like – that's cool. But, you won't know why you broke the first thing.
You are going to go do a second one. That's cool. How do you think the second one is going to work out? But, it's just this fantasy delusion, which is that somehow I will just go to this next circumstance. It will be different that time. But, if you don't understand. Why it was wrong in the first place. It is never different the second time. It gets to that inside out part.
That you mentioned. I will bring up like somebody. If you have seen somebody. They are on their fifth divorce. But number six is the woman of his dreams. You might go, possibly but maybe not, right. You might be carrying the same prescription in program to the next circumstance. It will turn out kind of the same as the last ones.
Because the way we really change the story is from the inside out. I think. If we rewind all of the way to the beginning. That is what you are really saying. That with the Marvelous Pigness of Pigs, you're really opening up a can of worms in a sense by saying; "Look, there's things here we can address." But, they're not easy. By the way, they require us to look inside; which feels like a both revolutionary but a very old thought. You can find such sentiments stretching back pretty far, as far as the written word. I think.
Joel Salatin: Yeah, absolutely, I mean. We say…. Well, it's easy to say, "I can't." It's a lot harder to say, "I can." I can't do this is – I can't do this for a reason. It's so fun to say it. Because then we're not responsible. If you can do it, but you're not; then you're responsible. But, if you can't do it, and you're not; then you're not responsible anymore because you can't do. I can't – is a real enabler for things. We see it here again and using the farm as metaphor. We see it here. We would want to produce more. For example, from the farm in order to generate more salaries. The more people who can be here. In order to do that, most farms are always thinking; "How do we gobble up additional farm and additional acres?" Instead for us – we're thinking; "How can we stack?"
This is a kind of a permaculture concept. How can we stack more enterprises here? For example, we have dug a bunch of ponds. Enough now that we have bought some of this K-Line Irrigation system. Now, when it gets dry in the summer; instead of sitting here and being depressed on the stoop because it's not raining. We take winter snow melt and early spring rains like we have had just lately.
All of the ponds are full now. In August, we can dispense that water out on a landscape. We can grow another whole cycle of vegetation. Whether it's crops, grass. Whatever it is, vegetable. We can grow another cycle of vegetation with that stored water. That is a way to work from the inside out, instead of the outside in; and instead of looking for – and additional production from outside.
Let's look inside. See what we can do. We can grow other products. We can grow. We can do other things. I mean, we have a sawmill. We got a sawmill so we could cut our own lumber. But guess what? We can make furniture out of that lumber. Suddenly those trees that are worth ten dollars wholesale at the sawmill suddenly become worth five hundred dollars in a hutch, or a chair, or a table, or whatever. Suddenly instead of having to, for example, harvest 50 acres of forest in order to make a decent income; we only have to harvest half an acre.
All of the rest can keep growing. We make the same amount out of half an acre that we did off of 50 acres. That's the kind of inside out thinking, and stacking synergistic enterprises, so that it actually – we actually generate more income on the same acreage as opposed to always looking at more acreage.
Chris Martenson: That more acreage of course is something. Every time I visited a factory farm, I see. I remember. I visited one that was 11,000 acres down in Maryland. They had about one percent organic content left in this red clayish soil. They couldn't figure out how they could possibly increase organic content. Because they said, "Well, to get it back up to six percent, that's about three years of fallow."
We're only making a hundred and fifty dollars an acre off of this stuff; which is pretty thin margin. As it is given, this farm probably had flow through of millions of dollars. But, their life and death depended on that hundred and fifty bucks an acre of actual profit.
Joel Salatin: Yeah.
Chris Martenson: Their experience, I was like…. How long has it been a hundred fifty dollars? He was like, "It's always a hundred and fifty dollars." The price of corn goes up. All of my inputs go up magically right under it.
Joel Salatin: Yeah.
Chris Martenson: That was sort of the treadmill that they were on. One bad season and you're upside down in your loans, and on, and on. I see how they really get trapped in that. But to untrap from that which was my own. I think I did that my own life creating my own job and figuring out what my gifts are and decoupling from being dependent on a paycheck.
These things have lots of metaphors. Ways they can ripple through to people's lives. But, if I could guess. Your magic in this is to just look at something. Always have that curious question of saying, "Well, is there another way we could do this?" What else can be done here?
Joel Salatin: Yeah, absolutely, as my son, Daniel says all of the time. He says, "Our problem is not a lack of resources." We have got plenty of resources. Our problem is constipation of imagination. That's our problem. We're all blocked up. Because we know how it's supposed to be done. Or, how other people think it's supposed to be done. That becomes our limiting factor. The fact we could do things very differently and profoundly better.
It never even enters the imagination. I mean, that's what is so interesting about, for example, the work of Elon Musk at Tesla. I mean, there is a disruptor. The disrupters are by definition this lunatic fringe. I mean, take Airbnb. I mean, who would have thought ten years ago that an outfit would be able to duplicate all of the bed space of Marriott, Hilton, and Sheraton combined without driving a nail or buying a mattress in ten years.
Chris Martenson: Yes.
Joel Salatin: I mean, that's incredible. The whole sharing economy that's coming on; the sharing economy that's being enabled by high tech electronic means is part of that disruption of space. I mean, look what Uber has done to taxi drivers, for example. The taxi drivers, of course, they are rebelling and trying to circle the wagons and keep them all out. The hospitality industry is trying to keep out Airbnb, and all of this and that. Look, disruption happens.
Disruptors happen. Disruptors are by definition not very loved when they begin disrupting. Everybody is tickled at what Airbnb for example has done. Whether you like it. Or, whether you stay in them or not. Most people are amazed at what has happened. Then, it's a good thing. But, that's been a long slog. People don't…. For the guys who developed it against the grain; and people love to talk about. Now, they're multimillionaires. But, what they don't like to talk about is the slog and –
Chris Martenson: Yeah.
Joel Salatin: – The mastery, and actually punch through, and breakthroughs are a slog. I mean, you're talking about you untrapped yourself from the life you were in. You started something different. You did something different. But, it was a slog. It didn't just come ha
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